Replicant

IMHO the better source for that would be: http://code.paulk.fr/article16/missing-proprietary-firmwares-in-android-systems

Because I don't like to make this non-free support instructions public, I've sent you a PM about that...

The GPS requires proprietary software running on the main CPU, in addition to a firmware running on the chip. We do not provide instructions for installing any of those.

Why? I mean, I generally do understand, that you do not want to promote any use of non-free blobs. But in this case, there is no alternative to this proprietary part! And I personally don´t want to use a Smartphone, that doesn´t support such crucial features such as GPS. So I am scared to install Replicant at all, and I do think that there are many people with a similar attitude. Wouldn´t it be more target-aimed, if you DO provide the instructions to load binary firmware (probably with a big warning sign), in order to let a greater amount of people replace at least parts of there system with libre parts of replicant?
Don´t get me wrong, i do judge this critical too, and the situation we are currently in is far from ideal. But as I said, this `100%-free-software-attitude` is currently obstructive IMHO.

Why?

Because providing installation instructions for proprietary software is actively promoting and encouraging its use, something that directly conflicts with the core values behind Replicant. See: https://www.replicant.us/about.php#installing-proprietary-components

Wouldn´t it be more target-aimed, if you DO provide the instructions to load binary firmware (probably with a big warning sign), in order to let a greater amount of people replace at least parts of there system with libre parts of replicant?

Then we would be missing the point of a free system. It is fine for third parties to provide documentation on how to install those proprietary parts (and some do provide those instructions), however it cannot be done within the project for the reasons I just mentioned. Also, the goal of the project is to craft a fully free mobile system, not to encourage as many people as possible to use it by compromising on freedom.

But as I said, this `100%-free-software-attitude` is currently obstructive IMHO.

Replicant is all about respecting its users and following values of freedom, see: https://www.replicant.us/about.php#shipping-proprietary-components
We believe it's the least we can do and there is nothing obstructive there (we are not actively blocking the use of proprietary software with Replicant).

Because providing installation instructions for proprietary software is actively promoting and encouraging its use, something that directly conflicts with the core values behind Replicant.

I does not, as long as you actively warn the user not to do this as long as he wants to have a fully free system.

(and some do provide those instructions)

Sure, they do, but as I said, for many people it would be more convincing to use replicant if you at least link to these instructions.

Also, the goal of the project is to craft a fully free mobile system, not to encourage as many people as possible to use it by compromising on freedom.

But this does encourage many people to compromise even more on there freedom, because they dont want to make so many tradeoffs to have a fully free system.

We believe it's the least we can do

I can´t stress this enough: I really really really appreciate the work of replicant, it is awesome! And I do not blame replicant for not providing free replacements for all parts, reverse engineering is a hard work.

and there is nothing obstructive there (we are not actively blocking the use of proprietary software with Replicant).

Probably the word obstructive was misplaced there. And I dont think, I can convince anyone here to relax from their free software ´ideology`... It´s just, that i don´t see any advantages in being so rigorous. And this shows a black and white thinking in my view: Either you do have a free system but compromise on functionality. Or you do have a system with full off-the-shelf functionality but compromise on freedom. Why not showing that there is a way to balance between these two?

And I think its particularly ridiculous that "My Self" has provided the instructions only via PM.

The more I think about it... Wouldn´t it be possible, to provide the free drivers as flashable zips or something like this along with the full images? Then you wouldn´t have to advise the people to compromise on their freedom.

Because providing installation instructions for proprietary software is actively promoting and encouraging its use, something that directly conflicts with the core values behind Replicant.

I does not, as long as you actively warn the user not to do this as long as he wants to have a fully free system.

Hmm, as I initially tried Replicant, (and I searched for such instructions, too) and would have found ready-to-go instructions for installing GPS blobs, I would have used them blindly for sure. IMHO, big red (and whatever) warning signs in this context would only exist to be ignored, especially if you strongly want such a feature.
(To go through the investigation of that topic, I personally have learned more about the Android functionality, the single features itself and especially, that I can life without the most features which needs proprietary blobs, yet. [Not least because I compensate missing features with free alternative features or workarounds]).

(and some do provide those instructions)

Sure, they do, but as I said, for many people it would be more convincing to use replicant if you at least link to these instructions.

Hmm, only in this thread, the link which brings you to the blog entry, which leads to the features you (and others) ask for, was provided two times, already.
So IMHO, using the Replicant forum search bar, and/or the Internet search engine of your choice will lead you to the proprietary features.
But I agree with Paul; providing single click solutions for that should not be the way to go.
If it doesn't matter for you to use proprietary software, there are a lot of alternative (mostly more current) custom ROMs in the wild.

Also, the goal of the project is to craft a fully free mobile system, not to encourage as many people as possible to use it by compromising on freedom.

But this does encourage many people to compromise even more on there freedom, because they dont want to make so many tradeoffs to have a fully free system.

IMHO, so I fear they have to wait, (or get themselves involved in the project) until the proprietary parts will be replaced by open source ones.
Or using the unsupported and not recommended way, to merge blobs into the system; but again, this shouldn't be a welcome message such:
"You have downloaded the Replicant image now, for non-free features like GPS, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and 3D acceleration please click here... (and by the way, please don't use them)".

[...] Why not showing that there is a way to balance between these two?

There is, if you look above, but Replicant don't have to shout proprietary-n00b-instructions from the rooftops.

And I think its particularly ridiculous that "My Self" has provided the instructions only via PM.

Why you're sure I've provided fully instructions to the thread-holder? I just gave a hint, which could save the kindly asking person exactly one search request on the Internet; but I wanted to respect, that the Replicant forum isn't the place for hints like these...

The more I think about it... Wouldn´t it be possible, to provide the free drivers as flashable zips or something like this along with the full images? Then you wouldn´t have to advise the people to compromise on their freedom.

• I've made such flashable zips as my first challenge, as I get in touch with Replicant for the first time. So everybody else can do that and the (two times provided link) will (in the result) also create a flashable (blobs containing) zip, by simply executing a script...

• I hope I get you wrong, if you propose to provide non-free stuff inside (or along) the images, which could be flashed out and replaced by free stuff (more or less optionally).

In both cases - I fear - you don't want do accept the basic statement(s) about proprietary software here.

There is, if you look above, but Replicant don't have to shout proprietary-n00b-instructions from the rooftops.

I get your point... Especially as people who consider using replicant should be regarded as more capable in terms of technology than the average internet joe. Probably...

Why you're sure I've provided fully instructions to the thread-holder?

My fault, I interpreted that wrong.

If you really mean 'free drivers', then

I hope I get you wrong, if you propose to provide non-free stuff inside (or along) the images, which could be flashed out and replaced by free stuff (more or less optionally).

Yup, I meant free drivers. Just like you are able to switch between free and proprietary drivers on Gnu/Linux. Probably thats just a dumb idea on embedded... But thats what came to my mind.

In both cases - I fear - you don't want do accept the basic statement(s) about proprietary software here.

I guess I do want to accept the basic statements about proprietary software, otherwise I wouldnt mess around with replicant and wouldnt use libreboot on my desktop (well, actually i dont, but im really looking forward to).
My example for not working parts was GPS. Okay, I dont use GPS THAT often.. But Wifi. I dont have unlimited mobile data, and without a internet connection, I could also go back to good old nokia 3310 and stop using replicant, because I can go without playing 2048 on my phone.

There is, if you look above, but Replicant don't have to shout proprietary-n00b-instructions from the rooftops.

I get your point... Especially as people who consider using replicant should be regarded as more capable in terms of technology than the average internet joe. Probably...

Just to avoid misunderstandings. I meant that the instructions for installing proprietary software shouldn't be a thing every n00b could do >too< easy. Because, I personally think that the most people would just do, and so this would "directly conflicts with the core values behind Replicant", as Paul wrote already.
But of course, every person (noobies, pros, techies, ...) and every question (please don't hesitate to ask everything you're thinking of) is welcome.

In both cases - I fear - you don't want do accept the basic statement(s) about proprietary software here.

I guess I do want to accept the basic statements about proprietary software, otherwise I wouldnt mess around with replicant and wouldnt use libreboot on my desktop (well, actually i dont, but im really looking forward to).

I meant the statement, that Replicant doesn't want to recommend/support/provide/... proprietary software.
If you want such proprietary available only features, why not just using coreboot and/or CyanogenMod, (or other similar projects) instead?
(Such projects should be exactly what you're looking for; free software, combined with some blobs to provide all the fancy features you miss).

My example for not working parts was GPS. Okay, I dont use GPS THAT often..

That's what I've realized, too; for me it was a nice-to-have feature before, but I'm not depend on it, and now I can life completely without it since several months...
(Of course that doesn't mean, that I wouldn't be happy, if this feature is probably available as a fully free replacement, someday).

But Wifi. I dont have unlimited mobile data [...]

This problem sounds familiar, but I don't want to use non-free wi-fi, even if that 'loaded firmwares' are documented in the wiki.
In my eyes, this situation could have a slightly positive facet. If somebody asks you, if you need the wi-fi password or just saying that the wi-fi here is for free, you have a great basis for a talk about, why you can't using it, and what's open source, and what's the difference to freeware, you name it...
Some people are surprised, but sometimes they're interested, too; and probably you're responsible for the next Replicant / libreboot user or just for sensitizing one more person. (But of course I know first-hand, the most people think you're simply crazy) シ
Last but not least, have you seen this USB networking workaround? http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/ReplicantUSBNetworking

In my eyes, this situation could have a slightly positive facet. If somebody asks you, if you need the wi-fi password or just saying that the wi-fi here is for free, you have a great basis for a talk about, why you can't using it, and what's open source, and what's the difference to freeware, you name it...

Thats a really slight positive effect... But thanks for pointing it out ;)

But of course I know first-hand, the most people think you're simply crazy

That´s what I´ve realized too...

Last but not least, have you seen this USB networking workaround? http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/ReplicantUSBNetworking

No, i haven´t, thanks!

Because, I personally think that the most people would just do, and so this would "directly conflicts with the core values behind Replicant", as Paul wrote already.

Just to clarify here: the fact that people decide to use proprietary software on top of Replicant is really not any of the project's concern. We are not trying to discourage the use of proprietary software either (I don't see any legitimate reason to do that, people are free to chose whatever they want and above all, we shouldn't decide for them what they should and shouldn't do, that's the whole point here). What I am stating is only about the project not encouraging the use of proprietary software, which is different from discouraging its use.

I dont have unlimited mobile data, and without a internet connection

Note that the modem runs its own full-blown proprietary system. Using the modem's mobile data is by no means any better than using the Wi-Fi firmwares. It simply works out of the box because the modem system is preinstalled and is out of the scope of Replicant. But for users, the big picture is that the modem is still proprietary and it's a huge problem.